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Split&nbsp;Dysithamnus plumbeus&nbsp;and&nbsp;D. leucostictus Proposal 261b: Split&nbsp;Dysithamnus tucuyensis&nbsp;from&nbsp;D. plumbeus&nbsp;or&nbsp;D. leucostictus</title> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:DocumentProperties> <o:Author>James Remsen</o:Author> <o:LastAuthor>James Remsen</o:LastAuthor> <o:Revision>2</o:Revision> <o:TotalTime>2</o:TotalTime> <o:Created>2015-09-28T03:59:00Z</o:Created> <o:LastSaved>2015-09-28T03:59:00Z</o:LastSaved> <o:Pages>3</o:Pages> <o:Words>2240</o:Words> <o:Characters>11987</o:Characters> <o:Company>LSU Museum Natural Science</o:Company> <o:Lines>278</o:Lines> <o:Paragraphs>67</o:Paragraphs> <o:CharactersWithSpaces>14160</o:CharactersWithSpaces> <o:Version>14.0</o:Version> </o:DocumentProperties> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> <link rel=themeData href="SACCprop261_files/themedata.xml"> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:Zoom>156</w:Zoom> <w:SpellingState>Clean</w:SpellingState> 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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body bgcolor="#FFEFDC" lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='tab-interval: .5in'> <div class=WordSection1> <p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight: normal'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p> <p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight: normal'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Proposal (261) to </span></b><a href="http://www.museum.lsu.edu/%7ERemsen/SACCBaseline.html"><b style='mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:blue'>South American Classification Committee</span></b></a><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p> <p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p> <p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Proposal 261a. Split <i>Dysithamnus plumbeus </i>and<i> D. leucostictus<o:p></o:p></i></span></b></p> <p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p> <p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:16.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Proposal 261b: Split <i>Dysithamnus tucuyensis </i>from<i> D. plumbeus</i> or <i>D. leucostictus</i></span></b><span style='font-size:16.0pt; font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Times; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></i></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Proposals</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:black'>: These proposals are (i) to recognise a split reflected in almost all recent field guide literature; (ii) for completeness, to consider a split that has recently been proposed; and (iii) to adopt one of two possible names for one of the &quot;new&quot; species that would result. Like the recent <i>Conopias</i> proposal, no formal analysis directly on topic has ever been presented in a scientific journal. However, the first split is strongly supported by morphological, biogeographical and vocal evidence that has been published in various field guides and CDs. The second split is apparently supported by vocal and biogeographical considerations but less published literature exists on the topic and the differences are not as clear-cut as on the first.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Distributions</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:black'>:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Plumbeous Antvireo&nbsp;<i>D. plumbeus</i> is a lowland Atlantic forest species endemic to Brazil, with a small and fragmented range. It is currently assessed as Vulnerable by BirdLife International (2004). This is of note given BirdLife's move towards convergence with SACC.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Nominate White-streaked or White-spotted Antvireo&nbsp;<i>D. [p.] leucostictus</i> is present in cloud forest on the east slope of the Andes from Peru to Colombia.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Greater <i>D. leucostictus</i>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<i>D. plumbeus</i>&nbsp;have disjunct ranges c. 4000 km apart. Any recent contact is unlikely. The possibility that variations in morphology and voice from localities of sound recordings or specimens (discussed below) could vary clinally in the intervening regions can be discarded.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Venezuelan Antvireo&nbsp;<i>D. [l./p.] tucuyensis</i>&nbsp;is present in the coastal cordillera of Venezuela and has recently been assigned species rank in a major field guide on the basis of its voice and plumage (Hilty 2003) following previous suggestions that this might be warranted (Ridgely &amp; Tudor 1994; Zimmer &amp; Isler 2003). The taxon has an apparently disjunct range, with records of&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i>&nbsp;only in the Amazonian-bordering region of the east slope of the Andes north to in Meta, Colombia (recent range extensions set out in Salaman et al. 2002) and no records of any relative in Norte de Santander, Tam· or Merida regions.&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i> is a forest specialist that is not abundant where found and has a narrow elevational range. The apparent gap in records from Meta to Norte de Santander in Colombia may not be a real one given the lack of mist-netting or other studies in that region (and I have heard of an unpublished sight record in Santander). The lack of any records in the Merida mountains may be more significant.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Morphology</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:black'>:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>D. plumbeus</span></i><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:black'> and greater&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i>&nbsp;are similar in male plumage, though may differ slightly in the extent of white barring on the wings and shade of black/very dark grey on the underparts. The females, however, look nothing like one another. Female&nbsp;<i>D. plumbeus</i> are uniform plain brown with 2 whitish wingbars and a lighter throat. Female&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i> have slate grey underparts with broad white streaking and a chestnut mantle, wings and crown.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The plumage differences between&nbsp;<i>D. plumbeus</i>&nbsp;and greater&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i> have been discussed in at least two publications: Ridgely &amp; Tudor (1994) in&nbsp;<i>Birds of South America: Suboscines</i>&nbsp;and Zimmer &amp; Isler (2003) in&nbsp;<i>Handbook of the Birds of the World</i>. In the latter case, plumages are illustrated.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Turning to&nbsp;<i>D. [l./p.] tucuyensis</i>, males are similar to nominate&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i>. In females, the streaking on the underparts is broader and less contrasty (see plates in Zimmer &amp; Isler 2003 and Hilty 2003).<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Voice</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Loudsongs of the all three taxa have been published in commercially available recordings and have been described and discussed in at least two publications (Ridgely &amp; Tudor 1994 &amp; Zimmer &amp; Isler 2003). A sonogram of&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i>' call is set out in Whitney (1992). Quoting Zimmer &amp; Isler (2003):<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:14.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;color:black'>&quot;<i>D. plumbeus</i>: short (4 notes, 1.3 s) series of moderately long whistles (notes longer than spaces between notes), second note at higher pitch than first, 3rd and 4th declining in pitch, first and second notes less intense.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:14.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:14.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;color:black'>&quot;<i>D. leucostictus</i>: short (6 notes, 1.8 s) easily countable series of strong whistles, pitch falling (except sometimes initial note), first and last notes more intense.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:14.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in'><span style='font-size:14.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;mso-bidi-font-family: Arial;color:black'>&quot;<i>D. [l./p.] tucuyensis</i>: moderately long (13 notes, 2.7 s) barely countable series of strong whistles, pitch and intensity gradually rising to middle notes, then gradually declining.&quot;</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;mso-hansi-font-family: Cambria;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>English Names (to be considered in separate proposal if one or both of the splits accepted</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:black'>:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Two possible English names exist for&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i>. The historic name is &quot;White-spotted Antvireo&quot; (referred to in e.g. Meyer de Schauensee publications, pre-split). However, Ridgely &amp; Tudor (1994) noted that the female's underparts are streaked, not spotted. They suggested &quot;White-streaked&quot; instead. &quot;White-streaked Antvireo&quot; is probably more widely used in works referred to herein. Some exceptions are Sibley &amp; Monroe (1993) and BirdLife International (2004), who each go for &quot;White-spotted&quot;. A Google straw poll also showing 225-98 in favour of &quot;streaked&quot;. Given that historical stability arguments are of little relevance for a taxon recently recognised as a species, I recommend &quot;White-streaked&quot; as the better name of the two names.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Both Ridgely &amp; Tudor (1994) and Hilty (2003) suggested &quot;Venezuelan Antvireo&quot; for a split&nbsp;<i>D. tucuyensis</i>, thus with only one name, no proposal is raised on this issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Conclusions</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:black'>:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Ridgely &amp; Tudor (1994) concluded that&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i> and <i>D. plumbeus</i> should be split as a result of their &quot;wide range disjunction, very different elevations, strikingly different female plumages and very different behaviour and songs&quot;. Zimmer &amp; Isler (2003) agreed and the split has also been followed by subsequent BirdLife International publications (various), checklists of Northern South America (Rodner et al. 2000) and Colombia (Salaman et al. 2001), Birds of Ecuador (Ridgely &amp; Greenfield 2001) and a recent range extensions article (Salaman et al. 2002) among others. This split is strongly supported and widely followed.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Evidence for the&nbsp;<i>D. tucuyensis</i>&nbsp;split is less strong than that for the&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i>&nbsp;split. Only Hilty (2003) among recent field guide publications recognises this split, with other publications (e.g. Ridgely &amp; Tudor 1994, Zimmer &amp; Isler 2003) merely noting that it requires further investigation. Having observed and heard both taxa in the field, I suspect Hilty is right. The only question is whether this is one of those splits that the SACC decides it would like to see more evidence on before accepting.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Conservation Implications</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: A split&nbsp;<i>D. leucostictus</i> renders <i>D. plumbeus</i> Vulnerable. This is one of very few taxonomic treatments where BirdLife International (who recognise the split) has not followed SACC. A split&nbsp;<i>D. tucuyensis</i> would require re-evaluation of each of the other two taxa, both of which have rather small ranges and are largely restricted to forest. Without putting a conservation cart before a taxonomy horse, I note merely that these proposals could have important conservation ramifications.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Recommendations</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>1. Split <i>D. leucostictus</i>: YES, definitely.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>2. Split <i>D. tucuyensis</i>: tentatively in favour based on field experience, published sound recordings and descriptions thereof, but committee members may consider that a more detailed study (involving e.g. biometrics, molecular work) may be prudent before making a change. Yes is to accept the split; no to reject it.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>References</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family: Arial;color:black'>:<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>All on SACC references site.</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Thomas Donegan, January 2007<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'>=========================================================================<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Zimmer</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: &quot;A qualified &quot;NO&quot;. I think there is no question that&nbsp;<i>D. plumbeus</i>&nbsp;is specifically distinct from the other two forms, regardless of the species concept employed. Vocal and morphological differences, combined with a humongous range disjunction all point to <i>plumbeus</i>&nbsp;as being a separate beast, and indeed, that is how Mort Isler and I treated it in HBW Volume 8. Conservation considerations (as suggested by Thomas Donegan) also argue for this change being made sooner rather than later, since <i>plumbeus</i> is clearly a rare and threatened bird. So, I could go along with that split (261a). However, the case for splitting <i>leucostictus</i> and <i>tucuyensis </i>from one another is much less clear-cut, and really does require a thorough, quantitative analysis. Such an analysis is not only under way, but is well-under way (Isler &amp; Isler et al.), and should be completed and submitted for publication soon. I would suggest that we hold off on this proposal until this analysis is completed. In the case of&nbsp;<i>plumbeus</i>, the analysis will confirm what has long been suspected; in the case of <i>leucostictus</i>&nbsp;and <i>tucuyensis</i>, it is really required to be certain of which way to go.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Remsen</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: NO. With the formal analysis indicated by Kevin underway, let's wait.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Stiles</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: (261a) &quot;YES. The evidence favoring the split of&nbsp;<i>leucostictus</i> from <i>plumbeus</i> is much stronger than that for continuing to lump them, despite the lack of a specific quantitative analysis. A) the huge range disjunction is matched by several other taxa now (if not always) split, like&nbsp;<i>Baryphthengus</i>, B) the vocal evidence is quite convincing - at least they certainly sound different to me, and C) the phenomenon of heterogyny (females much more different than males) occurs in several other thamnophiline genera, notably <i>Cercomacra</i>&nbsp;- in the latter, some of the species involved are sympatric. These two were split by Chapman (1926) on the basis of the different females, but he noted the great similarity of the males, which apparently was the criterion used by Hellmayr to lump them; in this case, I prefer to follow Chapman. I also agree with &quot;White-streaked&quot; as an English name.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Stiles</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: 261b. &quot;NO, for now. The differences in female plumages are much less pronounced, the voices are less different (but certainly not alike) - here a more detailed study would be nice.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Nores</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: (261a) &quot;YES. Pienso que hay sobradas razones para considerarlos especies distintas. El plumaje de la hembra y el canto son importantes y el gran gap entre los rangos es para mi definitivo. No puedo pensar que una &quot;understory species&quot; pueda tener una subspecies separada 4000 km.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Nores</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: (261b) &quot;NO. Aunque el caso es algo parecido al anterior, las diferencias morfolÛgicas y la aislaciÛn de los rangos no son tan marcados. De todos modos, serÌa imprtante ver si las diferencias en los cantos indicada por Donegan son suficiente para considerarlas especies distintas.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Cadena</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: &quot;261a, 261b. NO for now. The relevant data have not been published, but they will be soon. Let's wait for the publication of the analyses described by Kevin.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Robbins</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: &quot;NO, for reasons outlined by Kevin, it seems prudent to hold off on making any changes at the moment given that a manuscript is eminent.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Additional comments from Stiles</span></u><span style='font-size: 14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>: &quot;As per Daniel's comment - I am willing to change my vote to a temporary &quot;no&quot; if a manuscript on these birds is indeed in the works and could be at least accepted by the time we go to print.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'>Additional comments from Donegan</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'>: &quot;I was unaware of the forthcoming publication mentioned by Kevin Zimmer above. However, I do not think that this changes anything as regards proposal &quot;a&quot;. Few, if any, authors other than SACC treat <i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>D. leucostictus</i> and <i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>D. plumbeus</i> as lumped. As Gary Stiles has pointed out, the split/lump status of these species has been debated for the best part of 80 years and has been resolved in the last 15 or so with vocal and biogeographical evidence in favour of the split. Giving the SACC current treatment for this/these species some kind of &quot;holy cow&quot; status seems strange when it is by far the exception to all other recent ornithological literature. Further, we have a strong indication that a forthcoming article will &quot;confirm what has long been suspected&quot; on this issue. I am not sure how necessary it is for anyone to &quot;confirm&quot; that this split is a good one, given that the evidence in favour has been published in textbooks and commercially available sound recordings for some years, is very strong and is widely followed. A publication is a publication, whether a book or a journal - and publications in journals, such as Chapman's publication (which was published in a journal series) have included discussion of this issue in favour of a split. Further, Kevin Zimmer, in suggesting a &quot;no&quot; vote here (that others have followed) is going against his own treatment in &quot;Handbook of the Birds of the World&quot; and his own approach in the <i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>Conopias</i> proposal. The evidence for this split is stronger than that for the <i style='mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>Conopias</i> species, as lack of sampling of certain regions cannot be raised as an objection. Finally, these are two range-restricted species, one of which is threatened. Downgrading one of them to subspecies rank (the effect of a no vote) will cause BirdLife to change their treatment - and could render the threatened Brazilian taxon and its habitat less of a conservation priority. I fail to see anything positive or sensible that would be achieved here by a &quot;no&quot; vote for proposal A and urge those who have voted to reconsider. On B, however, the proposal to wait for the published research to come out seems reasonable. Proposal B, as noted above, was raised for completeness only (in response to accusations of other proposals being &quot;piecemeal&quot;). If A should be rejected due to *not* involving a piecemeal approach and bundling by committee members of votes with B, this could send out a negative message to persons authoring future proposals.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><u><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:black'>Comments from Jaramillo</span></u><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Arial;color:black'>: &quot;261a - YES. Ample available, published data, analysis and opinions exist that all suggest these two should be divided. It also makes a great deal of biogeographic sense to me. As far as I can tell, there really is no dissenting opinion out there to keep these under one species.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>261b - NO, let's wait for the analysis.&quot;</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt; font-family:Times;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p> </div> </body> </html>